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Breton links to early Tattersalls
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tallbloke
my first post on this group so I hope I haven't broken any rules already.
I'm interested in the early history of the Tattersall family and thought
I'd share this sub-tree I've been mulling over. If it all looks jumbled,
try switching to a fixed width font. For brevity, I've omitted spouses,
mistresses and non-relevant siblings.
Spereuui was a Breton nobleman who witnessed several of King Saloman's
Charters at Redon Abbey. His Grandson Sperevi also witnessed a charter
there.
Although there's no proof positive of a link between them Eudo fitz
Spirewic, I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty good. Eudo was
granted lands in Lincolnshire to hold of King William. Ralph de
Taillebois' grandfather Ivo was sheriff of lincolnshire. The un-named
daughter of walter de Gant who married Robert de Tateshal was a sister of
Gilbert de Gant, the Earl of Lincolnshire. William Bardolf was sheriff of
Norfolk and Suffolk.
Eudo's name in latin as given in Domesday is Eudonis fili Spireuuic.
Question is: What sources might I go to to find any more descendants of
Spereuui?
Ridoredh Saloman spereuui
| King of |
--------- Brittany |
| | | |
Alain Pascuueten=Prostlon son
| |
Pascuueten sperevi
| |
Juhel AKA Berenger son
| |
Conan I son
| |
Geoffrey I son
| |
Eudes Count of brittany son
| |
-------------------------
| | | |
Bardolph Ribald of Stephen I Spirewic
fitzEudes Middleham Brittany |
| | | |
Akaris fitz Ralph de Maud de Eudo
Bardolf Taillebois Penthievre fitz Spirewic
| | | |
William Robert N.N de Gant Hugh
Bardolph Taillebois | fitzEudo
| | | |
Thomas Ralph Isobel = Robert de
Bardolph fitzRobert fitzWalter Tateshal
| | |
Doun Ralph Walter de
Bardolf fitzRanulf Tateshal
| | |
William Joan fitzRanulf = Robert de
Bardolf | Tateshal
| |
William II Robert de
Bardolph Tateshal
| |
| --------------
| | |
Hugh Bardolph Robert de Joan de
| Tateshal Tateshal
----------- | |
| | | |
Thomas Joan = Robert de Alice de
Bardolph Bardolph Tateshal Driby
| |
John John
Bardolph Bernake
| |
William Bardolf Maud Bernake
| |
Thomas Bardolf = Amice de Cromwell
--
tallbloke
"Property is nine tenths of the problem" - Dr Winston 'O' Boogie
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mj...@btinternet.com
> Hi all,
> my first post on this group so I hope I haven't broken any rules already.
> I'm interested in the early history of the Tattersall family and thought
> I'd share this sub-tree I've been mulling over. If it all looks jumbled,
> try switching to a fixed width font. For brevity, I've omitted spouses,
> mistresses and non-relevant siblings.
>
> Spereuui was a Breton nobleman who witnessed several of King Saloman's
> Charters at Redon Abbey. His Grandson Sperevi also witnessed a charter
> there.
>
> Although there's no proof positive of a link between them Eudo fitz
> Spirewic, I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty good. Eudo was
> granted lands in Lincolnshire to hold of King William. Ralph de
> Taillebois' grandfather Ivo was sheriff of lincolnshire. The un-named
> daughter of walter de Gant who married Robert de Tateshal was a sister of
> Gilbert de Gant, the Earl of Lincolnshire. William Bardolf was sheriff of
> Norfolk and Suffolk.
>
> Eudo's name in latin as given in Domesday is Eudonis fili Spireuuic.
>
> Question is: What sources might I go to to find any more descendants of
> Spereuui?
As you may already know, Keats-Rohan in "Domesday Descendants" (p 884)
states that Eudo fitz Spirewic was succeeded by his son Hugh fitz Eudo
before 1118 (citing Sanders Baronies, p 88 and Early Yorkshire
Charters, volume V, p 337). He is said to have held two fees for
castle-guard at Richmond in the time of Henry - presumably his estate
included the lordship of Tattershall, held by his father. He founded
Kirkstead Abbey in 1139, and died before 1166. His heir was his son
Robert, and he was also father of Walter and Andrew.
Additionally, Brown's Sibton Abbey Cartularies and Charters (1987) is
given as a reference.
On p 914, details of Robert fitz Hugh de Tatershale are given; this
names his widow as Elizabeth, daughter of William fitz Walter de
Welle, a niece of Gilbert de Gand, said in Rot. de Dom. pp 5, 9, 11 to
be the mother of ten children. He was succeeded by his son Robert,
who died issueless in 1212, and then by his grandson Robert fitz
Walter (d 1249), as detailed in your chart. Various further
references are given, but it is not clear from the conglomeration
whether they will help you.
Regards, Michael
tallbloke
@o61g2000hsh.googlegroups.com:
> On p 914, details of Robert fitz Hugh de Tatershale are given; this
> names his widow as Elizabeth, daughter of William fitz Walter de
> Welle, a niece of Gilbert de Gand, said in Rot. de Dom. pp 5, 9, 11 to
> be the mother of ten children. He was succeeded by his son Robert,
> who died issueless in 1212, and then by his grandson Robert fitz
> Walter (d 1249), as detailed in your chart. Various further
> references are given, but it is not clear from the conglomeration
> whether they will help you.
>
> Regards, Michael
>
Michael thankyou. I worded my request badly, I think I've got the family
tree from eudo downwards, although I don't have direct access to TCP it's
widely available on the net piecemeal, It's the proof of existence of the
individuals in Spereuui's line down to Eudo I'm looking for sources for.
i.e. Breton documents from the 9th - 11th century. Fairly thin on the
ground I would think...
Keats Rohan has produced a searchable database on DVD I believe, I wonder
if anyone on here has a copy. Not that I'd want to deny Oxford Press their
dues, but it'd be nice to kow if there's anything for me on it before I
cough up ;-)
tallbloke
news:Xns99732398F26...@216.196.109.145:
>
> Spereuui was a Breton nobleman who witnessed several of King Saloman's
> Charters at Redon Abbey. His Grandson Sperevi also witnessed a charter
> there.
>
As a brief update on this I recieved today an email from a latin expert at
the Bodleian Library who identified the relative as one sperevi, grandson
or nephew of the widow named Eudotal who donated a villa to Redon Abbey in
865.
Eudotal,,, hmmm.
As it happens I'm off to Brittany on the 30th and have made an appointment
with the archivist at the diocese of Rennes offices to print off
facsimiles of the original documents and discuss other early Breton
records.
I love holidays.
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taf
> Spereuui was a Breton nobleman who witnessed several of King Saloman's
> Charters at Redon Abbey. His Grandson Sperevi also witnessed a charter
> there.
>
> Although there's no proof positive of a link between them Eudo fitz
> Spirewic, I think the circumstantial evidence is pretty good. Eudo was
> granted lands in Lincolnshire to hold of King William. Ralph de
> Taillebois' grandfather Ivo was sheriff of lincolnshire. The un-named
> daughter of walter de Gant who married Robert de Tateshal was a sister of
> Gilbert de Gant, the Earl of Lincolnshire. William Bardolf was sheriff of
> Norfolk and Suffolk.
You have lost me. Clearly Spirewic represents the same name as
Spereuui (a conclusion made as early as 1932 in "The First Century of
English Feudalism, 1066-1166") but it does not follow that one person
named Sperewi must necessarily descend from another. You say you have
"pretty good" "circumstantial evidence", and then give several
marriages, but I don't see what support these marriages provide, nor
any other reason to connect Eudo filius Spirewic with Spereuui.
taf
tallbloke
news:1185319035.0...@x40g2000prg.googlegroups.com:
Hi Taf, I know there is no 'support' in terms of logical inference or
definite 'evidence'. That's why I talked about 'circumstantial evidence'.
Spereuui and Eudotal were I think probably fairly high ranking in terms of
land ownership and proximity to King Saloman's circle, judging by how high
up the list of witnesses Spereuui's name appears on some of the charters,
and by the way the widow Eudotal made such a generous donation to Redon
Abbey. Spereuui is clearly a 'family' name which was passed down through
generations. That leads me to guess it probably wasn't a 'common' name.
Naturally there is not likely at this historical distance to be any
definite descent of particular individual family lines, though I think
it's a fair guess that Eudo fitz Spirewic descends from Eudotal - Spereuui
and their kin. Spereuui was witness to a post mortem charter of Saloman's,
dividing his realm between Gurvand and Pascuueten (his murderers), which
makes me think he or his forbears had close relations with Saloman's kin
too, from whom descended the primary Breton ducal line to Eudes, the
father of the three lines which marry into the lines of Eudo's
descendants.
Just because no written records survive showing Eudo's lineage doesn't
mean he didn't know what it was. Maybe he didn't bother to write it down
because it wasn't too hard for his sons to remember that they came from a
long line of people called Sperewi. In fact, according to a breton
dictionary I looked at, the word 'sper' means 'seed' and carries the
connotation of 'lineage'.
It was an interesting exercise taking a look at the charters from the
Cartulary of Redon Abbey, maybe I got more fun and interest out of it than
Frank Stenton did with his one line comment.
It's all speculative and none of it 'proves' anything, but that's not
really my primary aim anyway. The journey is more interesting than the
destination sometimes.
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wjhonson
Spereuui is clearly a 'family' name which was passed down through
generations. That leads me to guess it probably wasn't a 'common' name. >>
--------------
The logic here is backwards.
It should read something like : *Since* Spereuui is clearly a very unusual name, it seems likely that it was a family name passed down through generations.
The otherway round as originally stated is circular reasoning, because it's not "clear" that it was a family name *unless* you can also state that it was quite rare and odd.
Will Johnson
taf
> > You have lost me. Clearly Spirewic represents the same name as
> > Spereuui (a conclusion made as early as 1932 in "The First Century of
> > English Feudalism, 1066-1166") but it does not follow that one person
> > named Sperewi must necessarily descend from another. You say you have
> > "pretty good" "circumstantial evidence", and then give several
> > marriages, but I don't see what support these marriages provide, nor
> > any other reason to connect Eudo filius Spirewic with Spereuui.
>
> Hi Taf, I know there is no 'support' in terms of logical inference or
> definite 'evidence'. That's why I talked about 'circumstantial evidence'.
> Spereuui and Eudotal were I think probably fairly high ranking in terms of
> land ownership and proximity to King Saloman's circle, judging by how high
> up the list of witnesses Spereuui's name appears on some of the charters,
> and by the way the widow Eudotal made such a generous donation to Redon
> Abbey.
> Spereuui is clearly a 'family' name which was passed down through
> generations.
This is not at all clear. You have three occurrences of the name,
spread over about three centuries. I don't think there is any direct
evidence that any of them are related to any other. That two appear
in the same chartulary is certainly suggestive, but it may instead
reflect a local preference, rather than a family preference. One
could be godson of the other rather than grandson.
> That leads me to guess it probably wasn't a 'common' name.
This conclusion should be based on its occurrence rates, not on
whether it is or is not a family name, which is rather irrelevant.
> Naturally there is not likely at this historical distance to be any
> definite descent of particular individual family lines, though I think
> it's a fair guess that Eudo fitz Spirewic descends from Eudotal - Spereuui
> and their kin.
Guess is about it. You don't even have any evidence that Eudo derived
from the same area.
> Spereuui was witness to a post mortem charter of Saloman's,
> dividing his realm between Gurvand and Pascuueten (his murderers), which
> makes me think he or his forbears had close relations with Saloman's kin
> too, from whom descended the primary Breton ducal line to Eudes, the
> father of the three lines which marry into the lines of Eudo's
> descendants.
This is a non sequitur. There is no particular reason that a deed
witness should be expected to be a relative, nor any particular reason
to predict that people who marry should be related, many generations
back (and hence that later marriage is "circumstantial evidence" for a
descent).
> Just because no written records survive showing Eudo's lineage doesn't
> mean he didn't know what it was.
OK, but this leads nowhere. That he knew what it was and that you have
correctly guessed what it was are two entirely different propositions.
> Maybe he didn't bother to write it down
> because it wasn't too hard for his sons to remember that they came from a
> long line of people called Sperewi.
Maybe he didn't write it down because he was all out of vellum. Maybe
his dog ate it. It is never a good idea to use the absence of
surviving information as evidence for a scenario, which is effectively
what you are doing.
> In fact, according to a breton
> dictionary I looked at, the word 'sper' means 'seed' and carries the
> connotation of 'lineage'.
I put little stock in this kind of entomological speculation. Sperewi
was clearly being used as a coherent name, and to break it down into
its entomological parts to draw conclusions would lead to the same
kind of incongruity as concluding that AEthelwulf was not entirely
human because -wulf means wolf.
Simply put, to me it looks like you are trying too hard. You have
drawn a conclusion and now you are trying to spin the evidence to
match the conclusion, rather than basing the conclusion on the
evidence.
You have nothing here other than an uncommon name appearing 250 years
apart.
> It was an interesting exercise taking a look at the charters from the
> Cartulary of Redon Abbey, maybe I got more fun and interest out of it than
> Frank Stenton did with his one line comment.
You certainly read more into it, but that is not necessarily a good
thing. Stenton's conclusion was that the name was probably the same,
and hence Eudo was probably Breton. That is probably a supportable
argument. Yours, that there was a descent, is not.
> It's all speculative and none of it 'proves' anything, but that's not
> really my primary aim anyway. The journey is more interesting than the
> destination sometimes.
I have heard that as an argument in favor of LSD use.
One of the hardest things for a researcher to do is to conclude that
there is not enough evidence with which to draw a conclusion, and
leave it at that. Instead, we tend to concoct the most tenuous
speculations to fill the gap, then become so enamored with our own
ingenuity that the wild guess becomes a near certainly in our own
mind, and it becomes more and more difficult to detect the flaws in
the logic.
taf
tallbloke
news:mailman.745.11854017...@rootsweb.com:
Hi Will, As far as I know, having checked various sources for Breton
names, Spereuui doesn't occur elsewhere that I've found. My use of the
word 'common' was meant more in relation to social context than frequency
of occurrence. I mentioned the Breton word 'sper' and it's meaning because
Eudo was known both as 'fitz Spirewic in lincolnshire domesday and as
Spiruwin in Norfolk domesday. The breton name 'Erwan' is equivalent to the
french name 'Yvick' according to a specialist on Breton names called
Marcel Juhel who I corresponded with some time ago. Again, I appreciate
this is nebulous and doesn't constitute any sort of 'proof' of anything,
but it's still of interest I think. Or is it the acid kicking in? :-)
tallbloke
@z28g2000prd.googlegroups.com:
>> It's all speculative and none of it 'proves' anything, but that's not
>> really my primary aim anyway. The journey is more interesting than the
>> destination sometimes.
>
> I have heard that as an argument in favor of LSD use.
Really? Got any primary sources for that? ;-)
>
> One of the hardest things for a researcher to do is to conclude that
> there is not enough evidence with which to draw a conclusion, and
> leave it at that. Instead, we tend to concoct the most tenuous
> speculations to fill the gap, then become so enamored with our own
> ingenuity that the wild guess becomes a near certainly in our own
> mind
:-)) alt.amateur.psychology is that way ---->
I haven't got as far as drawing conclusions yet because there may be more
evidence waiting to be discovered. The Catholic church has some surprisingly
old records relating to land ownership and tenure not to be found on Google.
I opened this thread in the hope someone may have something additional to
offer relating to Breton sources. Clearly, you haven't. Thanks for the advice
on not getting carried away with pet theories though.
wjhonson
The Catholic church has some surprisingly
old records relating to land ownership and tenure not to be found on Google. >>
Kinda of an odd statement isn't it.
Read it over a few times and then explain why the church would have records on "land ownership" that have evidently so far defied all inquiry by all historians... ever.
And if they do have them, in the Secret Vatican Vault buried deep under Mount Olympus or something, I'm sure we'll never see them.
Will
tallbloke
news:mailman.792.11854908...@rootsweb.com:
I'll reply to that when I'm back from Rennes. ;-)
wjhonson
I'll reply to that when I'm back from Rennes. ;-) >>
----------------
There is no treasure there, it was all made up.
tallbloke
news:mailman.17.118558799...@rootsweb.com:
The treasure lies among the fire blackened stones of northern Brittany found
around the hearth of Rufius.
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tallbloke
> <<In a message dated 07/26/07 04:20:56 Pacific Standard Time, spamt...@tallbloke.net writes:
> The Catholic church has some surprisingly
> old records relating to land ownership and tenure not to be found on Google. >>
>
> Kinda of an odd statement isn't it.
> Read it over a few times and then explain why the church would have records on "land ownership" that have evidently so far defied all inquiry by all historians... ever.
>
> And if they do have them, in the Secret Vatican Vault buried deep under Mount Olympus or something, I'm sure we'll never see them.
>
> Will
I found the geographical location of the villa donated by Sperevi's
grandmother to Redon Abbey in 865 annotated in the margin of the
original manuscript.
I also found a lot of other interesting and relevant material which
I'm currently working on.
I also found a very nice looking French archivist who joined me for
dinner that evening. :-)
Rennes is a beautiful city with half timbered buildings to rival York.
I'll post a link to some pics in due course.